LATEST ANALYSIS UPDATE

CONTENTS
1.  Study Participants
2.  Genetic Families using the Irwin Surname (or variants thereof)
3.  Comments on individual gentic families, including Border Irwin L555 haplotree



LATEST UPDATE OF ANALYSIS OF TEST RESULTS  (No. 28, May 2020)   
The following analysis is of the Latest Main Results Table as of end April 2020.  This analysis will be next updated in November 2020.
 

1.  STUDY PARTICIPANTS
Our Study includes participants from the Erwin, Genographic and Irish Heritage projects, and participants with other surnames who appear to be close genetic matches. It also includes a few participants with yDNA test results obtained from companies other than FTDNA. 
 
As of end April 2020 we have 525 participants with yDNA test results.  This total is less than the 622 "Project Joins" advertised by FTDNA as the latter figure includes kits that have not been returned, kits undergoing initial analysis, and some participants who have taken atDNA or mtDNA tests but no yDNA test!
 
Details of participants’ year of joining and country of residence are:

Year

No.

Residence

 %

2002-5

 25

USA

74

2006

 45

Canada

  6.5

2007

 36

Scotland

  5

2008

 42

England or Wales
  4.5 

2009

 27

Australia

  4

2010

 30

Ireland

  1.5

2011
2012                
 40
 41
New Zealand
France                     
  1
  0.5
2013
2014
2015 
2016
2017
2018 
2019
2020 to date                                  
 32
 41
 24
 40
 37
 20
 29
 14

Unknown

  3 
To place these figures in context, our participants represent about 0.16% of all Irwins alive today (or about 0.3% of all Irwin men); and while 86% of our participants reside in the New World, only 82% of the total population of Irwins etc. live there (see section 2 and Appendices A and B of the accompanying Supplementary Paper No.1 ("Towards Improvement ...."), and Supplementary Paper No.2 ("Surname Statistics").

 

Participants have volunteered the name, date of birth and place of origin of their earliest confirmed paternal ancestor:

Spelling

%

Date of birth

%

Origin

%

Arwin/e

  1.5

1900s

  2.5

Scotland

23

Ervin/Earvine

  5.5

1800s

32

Ireland

42

Erwin

12.5

1700s

42

England/Wales

  4

Irvin

  7

1600s

  7.5

UK

  0.5

Irvine

18

1500s

  2

Germany/Neth/France

  1.5

Irving

  8.5

1400s

  1

USA E coast

14

Irwin

32

1300s

  0

USA elsewhere

  3.5

Urwin

  1

1200s

  1

Canada

  0.5

Other

14

Unknown

12

Unknown

11

The “Other” spellings are participants with surnames unlike Irwin but whose DNA indicates their ancestors were genetically related to an Irwin genetic family (see below).

 

Some participants have given more specific details about their earliest confirmed paternal ancestor, or where their ancestors first settled after migrating, from which the following was derived in 2016: 

Scotland/England  

No.

Ireland

 No.

Eastern America

No.

Shetland

  4

Ulster: Antrim

18

Canada

10

Orkney

  9

           Armagh

  3

New Hampshire

  1

Aberdeenshire

  7

           Cavan

  1

Massachusetts

  5

Forfarshire

  1

           Derry

10

New York

  5

Perthshire

  2

           Donegal

  2

New Jersey

11

Ayrshire

  1

           Down

  2

Philadelphia

16

Dumfriesshire

14

           Fermanagh

14

Ohio

  6

Cumberland

  4

           Tyrone      

15

Maryland

  5 

Northumberland/Durham

  7

Monaghan

Connaught   

Leinster

Munster              

  1

  3

  5

  5

Virginia

North Carolina

South Carolina

Georgia

Elsewhere in USA                             

16

11

  2

  8

15

These distributions can be interpreted as representative of a general trend of migration from the Scottish Borders to Ulster in the 17th century and migration from Ulster to Eastern America in the 18th century.


No. of STR markers tested:

No. of markers

12 or less

25

37

67

111        >111

% participants

  4

  1

53

18

   14            10

i.e. 95% of participants have tested to 37 markers or more.

Analysis to 37 markers has proved the most popular and cost effective.  Lower resolution tests, i.e. with less than 37 markers, have been found to be inadequate for most participants.  The 67-marker and 111-marker tests have yielded little additional benefits, and the new Panels 6 and 7 (markers 112-838) which now accompanies the BigY tests have negilgible value. 
 
Upgrading to 37 markers is recommended for all participants with less than 37 markers. Upgrading to 67 or 111 markers is not recommended without prior consultation with the Study Administrator.  For members of our Borders genetic family (see below) who have not taken a BigY test, the new BigY700 test or the cheaper L555 SNP Pack test would be a much better investment.

54 (10%) have BigY test results, and a further 72 (14%) have SNP panel test results.  37 (7%) have BigY700 test results.  56% of Border Irwins can now be placed on the L555 haplotree (see section 3.1 below). 

 

 

2.  GENETIC FAMILIES USING THE IRWIN SURNAME (or variants thereof)

At end April 2020, SNP tests and FTDNA's predictions based on STR data show the 525 participants to be members of the following haplogroups: 

 Haplogroup     R1b1      I1      I2       E      J1      J2      R1a       G
 %       89%       4.2%       2.4%       1.3%       1.1%       0.8%       0.6%       0.4%

However of more significance, on the basis of STR data it has been possible to identify 44 genetic families using our surname that are apparently unrelated to each other during the surname era (i.e. roughly the last millennium):
 

Genetic family                                                                                Code   Origin

No.

        %

Haplogroup                            SNPs*

Scotland

B      Borders, incl. Bonshaw

339

64.6

R1b1                                       L555

         

          "

DA   Aberdeenshire, incl. Drum

F      Forfar                                        

    5

    1

  1.0

  0.2

R1b1                                       M269+, L21-

R1b1                                       ?

         

O1   Orkney 1

    6

  1.2

R1b1                                      SRY2627

         

          "

O2   Orkney 2

SF   Shetland (3 families)

    8

    5

  1.5

  1.0

R1b1                                      M405

R1b1                                      P312

          "

          "                                                   

PF   Perthshire

WT  Newton

    4

    2

  0.8

  0.4

R1b1                                      M222

R1b1                                      M269

         

U     Unknown (10 families)

  35

  6.7

R1a; R1b1; J2                       ) var.

         

N     NPE (16 families:  
           Beattie, Bell, Carruthers,   
           Dodd, Elliot (2), Fleming,

  51

  9.8

I1; J1; R1b1                          )

 




Ireland

           Graham, Johnston, Kerr,  
           Kincaid, Latimer, Little,

           MacFarland, Rutherford, 
           Todd)

ID   Drumcarney

 



   

    2




 

  0.4 





R1a                                         M512 

         "

IL    ?Leinster

  12 

  2.3

I2b                                           M223  

          "

IM    Munster

    7

  1.3  

R1b1                                       C4466, A89

         

          "

Germany/Netherlands

IR1  Roscommon 1

IR2  Roscommon 2

G    Germany/Netherlands

    5

    1

    8

  1.0

  0.2

  1.5 

R1b1                                       M269

R1b1                                   M269
R1b1                                   L23

          "                                                                                            GN   NPE

    1

  0.2

R1b1

Africa

AF   Africa

    2

  0.4

E1b1a

Unassigned

s      Singletons

  31

  5.9

E, G, I1, I2, R1b1

Total

44   genetic families

525

100

 

 
*:  SNPs are introduced in "Interpreting yDNA Test Results", section 3.
Although these genetic families are unrelated during the surname era, all men are descended from a "genetic Adam", and the enormous haplotree of all his descendants, continuously evolving, can be simplified to show only how these Clan Irwin genetic families are related to one another, thus:


The short "codes" in red and green shown in this table represent the genetic families indicated by similar codes in our Main Results Table.  The dates and the Surname/Pre-surname threshold on the right only relate to the L555 ancestral line and are only indicative (experts differ on the exact dates).  The purpose of this figure is not an exercise in "deep ancestry", but simply to show that the 44 Irwin genetic families are not related to one another within the surname era. 
 
3.  COMMENTS ON INDIVIDUAL GENETIC FAMILIES

3.1   Borders genetic family.  This is thought to be the largest such families in all the DNA surname studies. It includes nearly two thirds of all our participants. All of the Study participants included in this family share a single paternal ancestor whose identity is unknown but who apparently lived in the Scottish Borders, probably Dumfriesshire, during the 14th century.  Although no genealogical records survive from this period, we know he lived there because a few participants in this genetic family are still living in Dumfriesshire today; we know roughly when he lived from SNP TMRCA estimates (see "Interpreting y-DNA Test Results"), the absence of hereditary surnames of amongst low-ranking Scots in the 13th century and some contemporary records of Irvings in Dumfriesshire in the 14th century.  Many of the Study participants living in USA and who were previously unsure of their distant paternal ancestry are gratified this link to the Scottish Borders has now been established.  Most of these American participants are probably “Scots-Irish”, i.e. they had an ancestor who migrated from Dumfriesshire to Ulster, typically in the 17th century, and a later ancestor who migrated from Ireland to USA, typically the eastern seaboard states from Pennsylvania to the Carolinas, and typically in the 18th or 19th centuries.  Both these migrations were probably for reasons that were primarily economic, although some migrations to Ulster may have been by Border reivers fleeing the courts, and some migrations from Ulster may have been by Presbyterians seeking less discrimination.

Several participants using surnames unlike Irwin are included in this genetic family as they evidently share this common ancestry, and so are NPE's (see sections 2.6 and 2.7 of Interpreting yDNA Test Results); Armstrong, Elliot, Graham, Johnston and Little are common Borders surnames, while Byers was a common name in Annan.  Errand is probably not a name change but a different surname.  The Cahill, Hamblen and Hutchinson participants know their relevant recent ancestry included such events.  However all such NPE's should take a L555 test (single or Pack Test) if they have not already done so, to confirm they are NPE's rather than False Positives.

In early 2011 a tentative classification of most of the participants in the Borders genetic family into 14 sub-groups was attempted using cladograms and FTDNA's TiP tool.  The modal DNA signatures of these sub-group were denoted thus BA (modal), BB (Bonshaw), BD (Dumfries), BE (Eskdale), B9, B10, B15, B16, B17, B23, B29 and BX (for the "left overs").  The background to these sub-divisions was addressed in Supplementary Paper No.3 ("Identifying Sub-groups ....").  

This tentative division of our large Borders genetic family into these sub-groups represented a significant development at the time and served well for five years, even though it placed some known close cousins in different sub-groups.  With the arrival of BigY tests in 2015 we initially got one such test for each sub-group.  This development did not it itself confirm or disprove the reliability of these sub-groupings, but with the advent of the cheaper SNP Pack tests in spring 2016 it became apparent that most of these tentative sub-groupings were incompatible with the new and more reliable SNP test results (see below).  

The test results for the Border Irwins in the Main results table are thus now split into two categories: B(1), for those Border Irwins who can now be placed on the L555 haplotree, and B(2), for those who have still to take the L555 SNP Pack test.  Both categories still include the old sub-grouping codes.

Thanks to the investments of an increasing number of L555 participants in BigY tests and Pack tests, and more recently in the BigY700 test, the L555 section of the Clan Irwin haplotree above can now be expanded downstream thus:

https://sites.google.com/a/clanirwin-dna.org/dnastudy/latest-analysis-update/Border%20Irwin%20L555%20haplotree%20BigTree%20format%202020%20May%201.pdf?attredirects=0

Click here for the more legible Excel version.  If desired, this can be printed on a legible scale on three portrait sheets of A4/letter-size paper, and if the narrow left-hand margins of sheets 2 and 3 are trimmed then the three sheets can be selotaped together.

Note that this haplotree is essentially the same as that presented in the B1 section of the Main Results Table, but turned through 90 degrees and with the participants sequenced in a different order: in the Main Results Table the participants are sequenced as per the FTDNA haplotree;  in the L555 haplotree above some have been resequenced to improve the clarity, showing of the non-Irwin branches of L555 on the left and the Bonshaw SNPs on the right.  The column numbering in blue across the L555 haplotree are inserted in column "R" of the Main Resutls Table. 

The haplotree includes some participants who have been added on the basis of STR predictions, Family Finder tests or previously known genealogical relationships, meaning that the haplotree now includes 56% of all the 336 participants who are tested or predicted to be L555 positive and can be placed on the haplotree. 

An abbreviated pedigree of the Bonshaw, Castle Irvine and Killadeas lines is included on the right.  The "triangulations" of the SNP data for the representatives of the Bonshaw, Castle Irvine and Killadeas lines show the clear correlation between their pedigree and their relevant SNPs in the haplotree.  Very few other surname projects have been able to achieve such genetic confirmation of traditional pedigrees.  Alas the available pedigrees of other descendants of Border Irwins shown on this haplotree do not extend back far enough in time to enable them to be connected with the contemporary 14th-17th century records of the other Border Irwin branches that have been identified in Chapter 16.2 of The Irwin Surname: its Origins, Diaspora and Early Branches.  

Please note that details in these haplotrees are evolving rapidly, and are liable to change.  However already many interesting and important points emerge that relate to the Border Irwins: 
  1. The BigY700 test, particularly when taken up at FTDNA's new prices of $239-$339 (depending on resolution of existing STR testing) (and less in their frequent sales) now offers excellent value.  It includes 50% more SNPs than the former BigY500.  It also identifies up to 838 STRs, although the value of these additional STRs is not yet apparent.

  2. It is now apparent that L555 is the ancestor of a family of Wilsons (BY19631) and of a family of Grahams (BY14121), so the earliest SNP specific to Border Irwins is not L555 or Z16932 but FGC13746.   It is nevertheless still convenient to refer to Border Irwins as L555.

  3. FGC13746 has at least 6 "sons":  FGC34569, FGC19539, BY3712, BY3661, 11507432, 16139804 and at least one unknown SNP FGC13746* shared by kits 592951, N114612 and 518765.  Further testing can be attempted to clarify these uncertainties.

  4. FGC34569 in turn has at least 13 "sons", including the newly discovered FT11934 which may be the "ancestor" of the Bonshaw branch, which is now appearing to be larger than had been thought.

  5. The L555 Pack test, at $119, is also good value for money for those L555 Border Irwin individual participants who are (understandably) reluctant to pay for a BigY test.  These tests show from which branch of the Border Irwins they are descended more reliably than the sub-groups that have been tentatively identified hitherto using STR data.  This means they can now seek genealogical relationships within their new SNP sub-groups with more confidence than they could with our old STR-based sub-groupsI.

  6. After combining these L555 Pack test results with L555 BigY test results and previously known genealogical data, our Study’s understanding of the origins and evolution of the Border Irwins has been improved considerably, as shown in the haplotree above.  

  7. It is significant that all but one of the many participants who were predicted to be L555+ on the basis of their STR test but had not tested for L555 who have now taken a BigY test or a single or Pack L555 SNP test have proved to be L555+.  The sole exception was an NPE.  This is as expected, but reassuring none the less.

  8. Although SNP Pack tests cannot identify “new” (i.e. unknown) SNPs, they have the unexpected bonus of their negative results indicating the existence of such SNPs.  These “new” but unidentified SNPs are indicated by a stand-alone “*” or "?" in the haplotrees above. 

  9. It is now also apparent that generally speaking by comparing the new SNPs under L555 with the tentative sub-divisions introduced in 2011 on the basis of single STR data, the tentative subdivisions BA, BE, Bel, Ber, B9, B10, B14 ,B15, B16, B17, B23 and B29 are misleading.  The reason for these STR-based groupings are misleading is due to back mutations, i.e. although the counts for two participants of a particular marker may be the same today, they were not necessarily the same 15 generations ago.

  10. However as most of the STR DYS617=11 sub-grouping (identified as “BB”) are consistent with the SNP groups BY3699, BY3656, BY3987 and (probably) the “?” of participant #397497, it appears that our use of DYS617 = 11 is a pretty reliable indicator of the Bonshaw branch.  This appears to have been confirmed by the new SNP FT12874.  

  11. The L555 SNP Pack tests have confirmed that the Castle Irvine branch is descended from Bonshaw, but that the Dumfries and Eskdale branches are not. 

  12. These Pack tests have also enabled the identification of BY3665 as a hitherto unrecognised "son" of FGC34569.  This branch is evidently not a son of Bonshaw, but probably migrated to Co.Fermanagh in the 17th century and from there in the 18th century to Augusta County in Virginia.  It thus seems appropriate to name this branch the Augusta branch, and as the ancestor of #432872 appears to have migrated separately it seems likely that the BY3665 mutation occurred in Ireland or even in Scotland.  But to date the six members of this branch have not been able to determine their genealogical relationships.  

  13. As more BigY and L555 Pack tests are completed it seems likely that these will enable further American branches to be identified and defined by their SNP characteristics, thus providing a reliable basis for interpreting the genealogical records of early American Irwins.

  • In the main L555 haplotree above I discontinued my earlier attempts to calculate the TMRCA (Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor) of L555 using the theoretical average number of years per SNP (125 years for Y500, and 83 years for Y700).  Instead I have counted the number of SNPs for each Y700 participant descended from FGC13746, a range of 5 to 16 SNPs with an average of 8.9 SNPs, as shown in the histogram at the bottom left of the haplotree spreadsheet.  If FGC13746 is the SNP of the earliest Border Irwin, and this man was born c.1350, i.e. 600 years before the average birth date of the participants, this gives an average of 67 years per SNP.  This seems more credible that the converse of subtracting the product of 8.9 and 83 years (the theoretical mutation rate of Y700 SNPs), i.e. 740 years from 1950, giving the birth date of the earliest Border Irwin as 1210, which was well before hereditary surnames were in use in Scotland.  But there are many uncertainties in both calculations.
  • Kent Irvin has developed some very plausible correlations between these Bonshaw line SNPs and individuals on the Bonshaw pedigree, which incidentally suggest that the L555 TMRCA may be significantly more recent than I suggest above, but I am refraining from “publishing” these until we have many more L555 Pack tests completed.   He and I have also developed pedigrees for the Irvings of Eskdale, Gretna, Hoddam, Luce, Pennersax and Trailtrow, all apparent early contemporaries of Bonshaw, but alas we cannot link these pedigrees to Irvings living today, whether members of our Study or otherwise.  See Chapter 16.2 of my book The Irwin Surname: its Origins, Diaspora and Early Branches.
  • Alas determining the identity of “*” SNPs will involve at least one participant in each of these new groups taking a BigY test (possibly with the costs shared amongst other participants within the group), and then the other participants in this group taking a new single SNP test.  At present such action is only justifiable for participants who have tested FGC34569+ but negative for all the known sons of FGC34569, and for the descendants of the large "*" son(s) of FGC34569.  Several BigY tests have been ordered on this basis, and have identified "new" SNPs.  These have not yet been incorporated into the L555 Pack Test.
  • The immediate priority is for those Border Irwin participants who have not yet taken a BigY or L555 Pack test to undertake at least the latter nad, with its new lower prices, even the former.  It is now clear that the Pack test offers better value for money than upgrading from 37 markers to 67, or from upgrading 111 markers (although one day these upgrades may well prove useful again).  Each Pack test will help enable the individual to determine which son of L555 he is descended from and help him find other genealogically related participants as well as improve our overall understanding of the origin and evolution of the Border Irwins.
  • All the other genetic families in the Study are much smaller that the Borders genetic family, the largest containing only 12 participants.

  • 3.2  Aberdeenshire
    participants are members of the senior line of Drum.  One of the prime objectives of this Study has been to test the tradition recorded by Dr.Christopher Irvin in c.1680 that William de Irwyn, to whom Robert the Bruce gave the forest of Drum in 1323, was a son of Bonshaw. At face value these DNA results now imply the present senior male representatives of the Bonshaw and Drum lines do not share a common male ancestor. Expressed another way, these results mean that either:
    • (A) the 14th century ancestors of the Bonshaw and Drum lines did share a common ancestor, but there has subsequently been a Non-Paternal Event (see above) in one of the two lines, when the name passed through a female line; or
    • (B) contrary to tradition, the 14th century ancestors of the Bonshaw and Drum lines did not share a common ancestor.
    For further details on this issue see the accompanying Supplementary Paper No.4 ("Interpreting Drum ....") where it is shown that scenario (A) is most unlikely.
    3.3  Fourteen participants claiming descent from ‘Orkney’ ancestors apparently represent two genetic families having different paternal ancestries.  A possible relationship between these two lines is shown in slide 36 of Supplementary Paper No. 9.  Contrary to tradition, it is now clear that neither of these two lines is descended from either Bonshaw or Drum.  This in turn means that the American author Washington Irving (1783-1859) is not a descendant of Drum.

    3.4  Shetland now has three small genetic families genetically unrelated to one another, or to Orkney or other genetic families.  However despite the excellent genealogy Shetlands now have access to (www.bayanne.co.uk/Genealogy), no genealogical links have yet been identified. 

    3.5  Four participants whose DNA signatures confirm they are distant cousins from a ‘Perthshire’ genetic family.  It is still unclear whether this family is an NPE or adopted their name from a laird, perhaps the laird of Drum. 

    3.6  One participant whose ancestors came from 'Forfarshire'. As with the Perthshire name, the origins of this family are unclear.

    3.7  The Newton family is another branch of the family whose origins are unclear.

    3.8  NPEsAlthough participants in the 16 small 'NPE - Beattie, Bell, Carruthers, Dodd, Elliot (2), Fleming, Graham, Johnston, Kerr, Kincaid, Latimer, Little, MacFarland, Napier, Todd' genetic families today all use the surname Ervin/Irvin/Irvine/Irving/Irwin, their DNA tests show they share a common ancestor with many in the Borders clans of these surnames, implying a NPE in their ancestral lines, probably in the 13th-17th centuries.  To quote the Borders Reivers website:
    “The intermingling of peoples along the Anglo-Scottish border produced a tough, hybrid culture claiming many lines of descent.  It is unlikely that all the members of any Border family were descended from the same ancestor.  The pervasive social upheaval increased the chances that men sired by members of one clan might be born or raised under the surname of another.  So did the matrimonial customs of Border families, which encouraged trial marriages and allowed wives to keep their maiden names.  Moreover, the clans themselves were political entities as much as families, and many men adopted the surnames of other clans to obtain their protection and a franchise on their power.  There is [also] particular uncertainty in the case of the Scotch-Irish, as much of their genealogy was lost or scrambled when they were forced to resettle in Ulster.”  

    3.9  Twelve other small genetic families have been identified (UE, UI, UJ, U4, U5, U6, U7, U8, U9, U10 (formerly Nixon), U11 and U12) but their origins are still Unknown; most are probably Scots or Scots-Irish;  some may be recent NPEs. 

    3.10  Uniquely to this Study the small Ireland - Drumcarney genetic family share the R1a haplogroup, but do not match any other surname that has tested with FTDNA.  They are probably a Scots-Irish family.

    3.11  The 'Ireland - ?Leinster' genetic family share a common ancestor whose haplogroup 'I1a' is quite different to other participants.  The origin of this group may be the gaelic family O'Hirewen from Leinster in Ireland, that was later anglicised to Irwin, but further evidence is needed to substantiate this possibility. 

    3.12  The small ‘Ireland - Munster’ genetic family,formerly thought to be three separate genetic families, share the same SNPs and so are now regarded as a single family.  One member came from Co. Limerick and whose gaelic surname O’Ciarmhachain was anglicised to Irwin.  It is clear this family never had Scottish connections. Members of this genetic family are recommended to also join the Munster Irish DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MunsterIrish/ ).

    3.13  Two small 'Ireland - Roscommon' genetic families have been identified.  The Roscommon - Rathmoyle family includes the senior representative of this line, which was settled there in 1584, i.e. before the "Plantation" of the early 17th century.   Their DNA suggests the line is a NPE of the Rutledge family, a Borders surname.  The Roscommon - Roundfort family is also apparently a NPE of the native Leinster family of Reilly.     

    3.14  The small ‘Germany/Netherlands’ genetic family share a common ancestor who evidently had the surname Arwine or Arnwine and migrated from Germany or the Netherlands (see  www.jowest.net/Genealogy/John/Arnwine/Arnwine.htm).  Subsequently, perhaps in the 18th century in New Jersey or SE Pennsylvania, it seems the name became confused with unrelated neighbours named Erwin.  It seems likely none of these participants ever had Scottish connections.  We also have what appears to be a NPE of this branch. 

    3.15  An 'Africa' genetic family is represented by an African-american whose ancestors were slaves, and probably took their surname from their slave-master.  

    3.16  About 6% of the participants are classified as Singletons until a closely matching participant joins the study.  Some of these Singletons may turn out to be recent NPEs.

    NB  Not included in these statistics are several individuals, known as False Positives, participants whose surname does not sound like Irwin but who have a genetic distance of 4/37 or less and who have tested, or are expected to be, L555-.  Such “matches” can probably be attributed to "convergence" of random mutations, and are unlikely to have a genealogical relationship with any Irwin etc.

    Ċ
    Rick Byers,
    May 3, 2020, 4:52 PM
    Ĉ
    Rick Byers,
    May 3, 2020, 4:53 PM
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